At some point in the last two years I completely stopped using Google search in browser and just use Google maps to find businesses or ddg for searches. Actual Google search just has too many sponsored or promotional links
I just searched local restaurants near me and tried to sort by distance and the first option was 800 miles away, the second was 600 miles away. It’s not just Google search getting worse.
Google has really been dropping the ball a lot more publicly lately
Was over for me when I opt out out of some of their data tracking shit and they started captcha’ing me everytime I browsed there. Like wtf Google what are you anymore? Sounds dumb but them changing the banner every week was the start of the end.
Changing the banner for like holidays and anniversaries of things isn’t an issue for me IMO
But yeah all their tracking shit that you can’t opt out of is a big problem and a big part of why I’m pulling away from Google as much as I can
Pretty soon the internet will be almost completely ruined. Within a few years. AI bots will have spammed everything. Searches and web pages will be entirely faked bs. Reddit and Lemmy will have enough ai Bots commenting and pushing agendas/products that no one will have a clue who’s a real person. Information that’s true will be almost impossible to verify online.
In short, if you think the web has gotten bad now, you ain’t seen nothin yet.
I agree with the sentiment, but lack of AI has not stopped SEO hacking in the past. Sure it will help them go farther, but there are already tons of garbage websites hacking the top 1-5 results of any search
The top results pages, sure. I belive it’s going to take over the top 500. Along with flooding places like lemmy and reddit.
In the past I remember it made using search engines less rewarding than using web directories, web rings, asking people on forums etc. That was slower, but gave you results (and acquaintances). While using search meant looking through dozens of pages of search results, mainly SEO.
I am more optimistic on that one. AI provides a pretty clear way out of this, since it allows you to automatically detect the bullshit. Meaning either the bullshit has to raise so much in quality that it is indistinguishable from good content, in which case it would not be bullshit anymore, or it will get filtered. AI can also transform bad websites into good ones, like a super-powered ReaderMode, AdBlock and more all rolled into one, so a lot of the “lets plaster everything with ads” will lose effectiveness.
The problem over the last decade was that Google completely lost interest in being a search engine, they are just an ad company and as long as search leads you to more ads, they are quite happy. So the user experience went down the toilet.
The real problem with AI is that it will remove the incentive for the authors. Content producers want to get paid, with AI you can just extract the information from an article without ever viewing the article or the ads around it.
“Notably, Google, Bing, and DuckDuckGo all have the same problems, and in many cases, Google performed better than Bing and DuckDuckGo by the researchers’ measures.”
Click bait headline. I see they’re good at SEO themselves.
Yeah, DDG skips all the sponsored links but I generally find what I’m looking for faster on Google if I just skip half the page rather than trying to find the right incantation to bring up what I’m looking for on DDG.
I’ve tried, many times over the years, to use DDG and you are 100% spot-on. I find it damn-near impossible to find what I need without some deep voodoo magic to somehow craft the perfect query. It’s been a decade+ since I’ve gone to page 2 of a Google search. Using DDG I can be 3 or 4 pages deep before maybe finding the answer. There is SOOO much irrelevant stuff to filter through.
It sucks, I don’t want to use Google, but there doesn’t seem to be a great alternative.
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I swear I’m going to capture screenshots of 2-3 dozen searches across DDG & Google, as well as hopefully Bing, Startpage… SearXNG…
b/c DDG is doodoo while corporate overlord Google is great with Ublock Origin.
Faithfully perform every search on DDG first in the hopes I can keep the data out of Google’s hands! But
!gout half the time.—
Anybody know of a site, app, or TamperMonkey script that’ll search multiple search engines side-by-side?
In the meantime, one example w/a direct quote from deep inside a Harry Potter book:
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You know DDG is just a wrapper around Bing right? No point comparing the two.
Not entirely true, they have their own index they use to augment/modify the results with. Like the paper linked in this very post shows, actually.
Honestly it’s been a yearish since I’ve tried and my memory is shit so I don’t have any specific examples I can give now. In general though the bulk of my searches involve:
- A local company I need for xyz or a specific type of restaurant
- Issues/repairs for a specific make/model/year car (I do lots of my own work)
- Various homelab related things (docker services for xyz)
- Details about a movie or TV show (sometimes a specific episode)
- Prices for products and where I can get them (trying to de-Amazon)
- How to fix xyz in my home
I’m sure there are more, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Tbh using DDG is more like using old (and I mean old) Google. Googling things used to be a skill people had. You googled things for other people because they had no idea how to get good results. That’s exactly how DDG is. It takes rewiring your brain to use it, and I’ve been using it for a year now.
I do go to Google sometimes. Specifically for opening hours in stores, and when I’m trying to look for products from smaller online stores I do not yet know of, which takes me to page 3-4 of Google but would’ve taken me far longer on DDG.
The country switch on DDG is a godsend because you can manipulate searches with it and get some really specific results if you know what you’re doing. It’s the learning curve that makes DDG worse if you just want to find something without having to teach yourself to search. Which is definitely a point to Google, but if you want a very specific result it’s better to battle that learning curve.
I should also add that I’m not really anti Google in any way. I just stopped finding what I was looking for about 70% of the time, and instead found products and shit to consume. It’s very useful for that stuff, but I never find obscure tech solutions with Google.
All true. DDG is my default search engine now. Yeah. I use others often enough, Google, Bing, searXNG…but I find that if I can’t find it relatively easily on DDG it means I’m going to have to sift through a bunch of SEO sites and sponsored links on Google to find it. It won’t be much easier. One of the most frustrating thing about Google is the “fuck you” they’ve given to search modifiers. The “-“ and quotes are pretty much meaningless. For instance one can enter an error code from a program, perfectly quoted, and Google will tell you there aren’t any good search results. BS. They just can’t figure out how to jam ads into what you’re looking for or something. Bing or DDG will return what you need, it might just be on page 2.
Google really has failed as a search engine.
I find that DDG is terrible at finding anything regionally specific, probably because I’m not in the US. I always get a shitload of US hits and usually some German hits if I try to specify location…neither are useful to me.
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!sp is something like ddg for bing, but it is based on google
just use a
!gif you don’t get what you want the first time on ddg and you’ll still get a proxied google search result.AFAIK !g on DDG doesn’t proxy anything.
nothing gets proxied, it’s just like searching directly on Google.
Would you be able to give an example of what you couldn’t find with DDG that was simpler to find with the help of Google? Sounds interesting to me, as I use DDG pretty much exclusively.
I don’t remember the specific case, most of the things I Google are local businesses. I find for local businesses Google is a top tier resource. Google can tell me how busy a business is right now, or if they’re closed because of the weather. I often have to do some digging to find the business’ page on DDG, if they have one. If I’m looking for a local contractor, like a water heater or drywall repair guy, the ads aren’t even that intrusive, they’re literally what I’m looking for. On DDG, I’ve got to do some clicking to find a contractor and then all the reviews are on Yelp. General contractors will have a list sometimes on DDG, but it’s not all that helpful, I’ve never seen a phone number without clicking once or twice.
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But on the flipside, if that data were publically owned and anonymized I’d genuinely want that kept. Since the feature is super useful. Same with busses and so on.
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I honestly think there’s something wrong with Google’s individual customization. They’re leaning in a little too hard on things you’re likely to be searching for rather than what you’re actually searching for.
DDG gives me better results for random searches on things I’m not usually looking for. When I was looking for Godot exercises yesterday every hit on DuckDuckGo for ages was just exactly what I wanted. When I went over to search Google there was a lot of more varied topics. Now, hands down if I need what time a certain store closes at a certain location Google will give me exactly what I’m looking for. Likewise if I need to know what’s near something else Google is absolutely superior to DDG. Google’s image search is also far more accurate and useful.
But then I come back and look for a medical condition for my cat that I’ve never heard of before, You passed by the sponsors and they’ve got a couple of random pages about it maybe a Reddit article or two that’s now blocked, but it quickly devolves to adjacent searches.
But if I go and search for any of my usual suspects, The rankings come back pretty decent.
I’ve run into that, I recently started playing The Finals (which I recommend), and Google searches have a hard time not changing my searches to American football, even if I put “video game” in the search
Yeah, the paper shows a startling lead for Google, more than I would have expected.
I try to swap to DDG every so often (usually once a year, giving it about a month), but every time search ends up being frustrating enough so I don’t stick around. Nevermind their boneheaded decision of using Apple Maps over something that actually wants to be useful like OpenStreetMap. But what I didn’t expect was just how big the difference between the two is when analyzed, damn.
Amazon’s no longer any good at shipping, and Google’s no longer any good at searching. What a terrible year to be a tech nerd.
Amazon’s not good at shipping?
I don’t like a lot of their business practices, but holy shit do they get stuff to my house fast and reliably. Most of the time, same or next day.
Yeah same, they’re absolutely unmatched, and by a huge margin. Faster, cheaper, and more consistently arriving both on time and undamaged.
I hate them. They do however easily outperform the competition, that’s sadly also something I have to acknowledge.
Nah last several times I ordered, I saw one date expected before I order. The next day the expected date changes and it takes a week to turn up. They’ve been trash for a while.
That’s because of their contracts with couriers which is undermining employee and road safety
Yes. But it’s always been like that. The shipping quality hasn’t declined, therefore “Amazon is no longer good at shipping” makes no sense. Of all the things to complain about Amazon, that’s not it.
don’t forget about every single device collecting as much information as possible.
It’s been that way for quite some time.
They quit innovating so what tech?
What I find is that Google is now still better for what I usually search (a mix of programming, gaming and random factoids) compared to Bing or DDG, but no longer by such a wide margin as it used to.
Best as I can tell, it’s because in the past Google constantly tweaked the parameters of their scrapers and models, in turn leading to SEO constantly having to re- and re-optimize, and making it difficult to artificially push your spam and crap content high. They must have stopped doing this, leading to this steady rise of generated spammy content, and now Google feels a lot like other search engines in that i have to very actively discard 80%+ of the results including the whole first page.
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I recommend reading the actual paper. Interesting though Google has gotten worse, it’s results are still massively superior to the competition. 9% spam compared to 31% for DDG and 23% for Bing. Damn. That’s still a huge difference, shit as nearly-10%-spam is. I would however say its increased percentage of social media results (11% vs 6% respectively 5%) is bad, but eh, I guess there are users to genuinely want to see those results. 🤷Removed by mod
No but it’s my gut feeling, and it matches with the temporal progress in the paper. Cannot truly know of course, but it’s what I would suspect.
The converse is that SEO spam has become better at the game than google, despite google’s best efforts. It’s a less comfortable thought because how could a bunch of unorganized distributed actors out compete the one of the world’s richest company at their bread and butter game. The alternative is that one of the world’s richest companies gave up playing their bread and butter game.
gave up playing their bread and butter game
Search was never Google’s money maker, that was AdWords. Search was merely the tool they used to get users in the door and exposed to AdWords, where they made their money. AdWords raked in ~100M/day in the early 2010s iirc.
The SEO community is not disorganized, they have conferences, write books, communicate with each other and work together. It’s a very organized community.
What’s changed is a few years ago Google stopped engaging with that community and changed from a “how can we actually work together” to an adversarial relationship.
This article is actually a great read on the topic:
https://www.theverge.com/features/23931789/seo-search-engine-optimization-experts-google-results
Now that there’s no dialogue, the spammers don’t need to care about anything but increasing reach while not getting banned.
Just to add to that, on my main job as a web developer, we had contracted to an SEO company some years ago, and they were constantly in communication with Google. One of our web sites had done something Google didn’t like in the past, and Google flagged that and it was killing its position in the search rankings. Google themselves won’t tell you much more than that, but the SEO group was able to figure out what it was and get Google to give us a clean pass.
Used to be that way. Just from personal observation, I concur with the poster above that this relationship has broken down and it’s worse for everyone.
Per your edit, there might be a blind spot in the study. Consider when you’ve searched for a recipe, and the top result you find always starts with "My cousins showed up one day and I had to scramble to make something . . . ". A big story you don’t care about before you can get to what you want. That’s happening because Google is giving those kind of recipe posts a higher rank. Ironically, adding this human story to the post is there for the sake of robots, not people.
I wouldn’t classify posts like that as spam, exactly. I still find the recipe I want. But they do make the experience worse.
RE: potential astroturfing (my comment last time); from my comment downthread that one:
Anytime [paid search engines] are mentioned I suppose I’ll jump in and say…SearXNG is a popular non-commercial alternative. I wanted to throw Grasp in to give a commercial competitor a shout but they’ve “paused”.
Update on Grasp:
We will be back soon and will open-source our code.
Neat, wonder if SearXNG x Grasp would be synergistic.
I am also using SearcXNG and the search results are usually good even though sometimes on the light side and I still have to resort to other search engines.
Looks like those theories about algorithms becoming recursive and ineffective will be proven sooner than we expected. I wonder if the emergence of crap AI sped the process up.
Just tried looking up if it’s safe to light a fireplace fire after having had a sinus surgery. (It’s very cold here in Seattle tonight and I had septoplasty/FESS/turbinate reduction yesterday afternoon.)
All my results were about smoking cigarettes and a result for whether it’s okay to box after surgery. Not a single source to suggest a fire being safe or not.
Your story is obviously anecdotal but I think it pretty much aligns with what what we’ve all experienced. You search for something and get results for something else. You change your search to try to get results you asked for and get… literally the exact same results. It’s infuriating.
This is why I use Bing Chat for specific questions.
"Hello, this is Bing. I’m sorry to hear that you had sinus surgery and that you’re feeling cold. 😟
According to some sources, it’s best to avoid exposure to smoke, dust, and other irritants after sinus surgery, as they can interfere with the healing process and cause inflammation. Therefore, lighting a fireplace fire may not be a good idea for your recovery."
Bing Chat provides sources to the claims so you can verify:
https://www.realself.com/question/cambridge-ks-pain-sinuses-weeks-after-fess-surgery https://www.healthline.com/health/phantosmia
That is really good to know! Thanks so much for the heads up on this! Never knew this was a thing.
You can also use perplexity.ai if Bing ai is not your cup of tea.
Was just going to say, I’ve been defaulting to perplexity way more recently. It is really good (even the free tier)
For me the specific question remains unanswered. There are a lot of results about the health effects on respiration, but none about specifically after a sinus surgery. Might be a question so specific that the internet at large has no answer to it.
What I do not get (on Google, search from Germany) is what you describe, my results are all relevant on the first 3 pages barring 2 results about the surgery instead of the fireplace.
Yep. It might just be a really weird ask. Like… no one has ever considered it. Meanwhile, I’m sitting here without a fire.
Can’t you ring up your usual doctor to ask? Or well, I guess you’d need to call a lung specialist, but they ought to be able to answer that, no? Or your surgeon who did the surgery.
Well, I have an ENT that performed the surgery, but he’s not available overnight for questions.
No the surgeon isn’t available to talk to, but you can call and speak directly to a ENT department nurse for after surgery issues. This is a far better option than ANY search engine answer.
Use the right tool for the job.
What about DuckDuckGo?
DDG uses Bing’s results. Bing has deteriorated less than Google but it’s also becoming worse every day.
And it started out much worse, so eh, it still works worse for me than Google.
Bing AND Yandex
I don’t the answers section very very hit or miss
Often it will link you to a highlighted section with noting relevant.
It really is terrible. I was a DDG early adopter and then Kagi. It’s been a while since Google has been my daily driver, but I do sometimes use it and the results are just bad. There’s so much spam and the results page is a mess. To my eyes, Google is worse than either Kagi or DDG in just about every way except speed. The only other thing I can really think of where Google is much better is in local search. They are damn good at that.
I use DuckDuckGo as my default search engine. Here in the Netherlands, DuckDuckGo results are poor for anything local. I fall back to Google relatively frequently, although for day to day stuff it’s quite okay. I do often head straight to Wikipedia…
It seems there is an arms race between search engines and content creators. The latter come up with those pages that will tell you the life history of the writer and their dogs, and 20 ads, five popups, subscription offers, allow the site to access your location and send updates questions and 'read more’s later you might find out the thing you need. All this to have more ads and rank higher in various searches. 10 minutes ago I wanted to find out what the hell a float needle is. I couldn’t. ChatGPT gave me the answer I needed in two questions.
It seems there is an arms race between search engines and content creators
No. It’s an arms race between content creators and spam.
Anyone who creates genuine good content has a healthy and mutually beneficial relationship with Google.
10 minutes ago I wanted to find out what the hell a float needle is. I couldn’t.
Huh? The top result for “float needle” in Google seems like a great description to me.
Doesn’t Google provide search results based on your search history? It’s algorithm probably worked against them or something. I’ve heard that anonymous searches usually get better results.
I have had similar experiences constantly.
I have a gut feeling that people who frequently bemoan bad search results fall into one of two categories:
- They have all kinds of tracking, and constantly watch Youtube Shorts or TikTok videos. Meaning their learned behavior is “This person enjoys low-quality spam content and lots of ads”, because let’s face it, portrait-mode shortform videos are primarily that, a vessel to push ads pretending to be genuinely content hidden among content barely better than ads in the first place.
- They have tracking entirely supressed and their browser so hardened that Google can’t even know that if this user puts in “needle”, they do mean a physical object. They don’t even know the language the user is searching in, basically. As a result virtually no weighting happens which allows spam content to rise to the top based on its built-in SEO efforts.
In the end, the second case is not something Google can truly optimize for. Or rather, it’ll never be their intention to do that. Though I will say DDG’s and Bing’s equally or worse search results indicate that a certain level of tracking might actually be beneficial, but we’d need a morally trustworthy keeper of the data (as in, it needs to be owned by the people or something!), nto Google.
And in the first case, I wish they’d do something about that. I can see why before the proliferation of the constant-ads-as-content spam that is shorts, tracking video watching habits to figure out general habits made sense, but especially because you no longer actively decide on which video to watch, this can no longer be valid input to user behavior analysis.I tried this in chrome and in Firefox with hardening enabled and VPN. I got relevant resumes each time but pretty different from each other.
Entirely shopping links for parts on Firefox vs short videos on chrome.
Since myself and others had no issues with your float needle example, mind sharing what you searched for, and what Google returned?
Yeah if you Google “what is a float needle” the first result on a napa website has a great description
Just putting in “float needle” gets me only relevant results, those being a mix of what a float needle is, what it does, and a few shop results for places where I can buy one.
Anyone who creates genuine good content has a healthy and mutually beneficial relationship with Google.
I’ve switched to Ecosia and while it’s not perfect, I now find what I look for, which became impossible with Google somewhere about 2014-2016, I think?
I know it’s a “secondary” search engine.
But the thing is that no, hundred times no, anyone who generates ad revenue has a healthy and mutually beneficial relationship with Google. Everyone else gets screwed.
Switching to Ecosia alone made me much more comfortable with using Web.
I’ve switched to Ecosia and while it’s not perfect, I now find what I look for, which became impossible with Google somewhere about 2014-2016, I think?
Ecosia’s results are pulled from Bing, and as the very paper linked here shows, Bing’s results are significantly worse than Google’s, even accounting for Google’s deteriorating result quality. Notice in particular the percentage of spam.
Worse for whom?
Did you read the paper this thread here is ultimately all about?
The paper - I have not, the article - yes.
I’ve looked through the paper diagonally now, and since it’s a scanned PDF, I’ll get back to it to read it patiently.
I still see that they chose one criterion which is maybe less relevant for things I look for, which are usually not very popular. There’s probably a curve somewhere which is better for Bing, apparently, than for Google in that point.
Because it’s my personal experience that I find things much faster with Ecosia than with Google.
Yeah. In fairness to Google entire industries have risen around the sole-purpose of manipulating their system for nefarious reasons. That’s a hard thing to deal with.
As a result SEO optimised pages are so bloated that I truly hate them.
My wife and I were looking up a specific calendar. The search query wasn’t particularly complicated and very clear. In Google, the first result was a 2023 version of the calendar, and the rest of the results were completely useless. In Duck Duck Go, the calendar we wanted was the top result. I can’t imagine what it’s like to use Google for a search that’s actually complicated.
Idk, I use DDG as my default, but I find myself adding !g to many queries after checking out the first page of results; so much so that my brain has made such a strong connection to “!g -> better results” that I often find myself automatically typing it in Google as well when my results are unsatisfactory.
I had that same habit a few years back, but have not had that problem for some time. DDG seems to generally provide the results I seek.
Does !g cause DuckDuckGo to search through Google’s search results - and if so does DDG do a better job of prioritizing the relevant ones? I’ve used DDG for a couple years but I didn’t know that syntax.
!gjust redirects you to Google search. DDG itself is just Bing with extra marketing. If you want Google+cleanup you have to use Kagi, which gathers its results by combining different sources.
And yet the very link you’re saying this under is essentially about how much better Google is than DDG or Bing. 😅 Just saying, the headline is garbage, while Google got worse, DDG and Bing (both also analyzed) got worser, faster, harder.
I switched to DDG and then to Kagi based on all the praise it gets here. So much better than Google!
Interestingly according to the linked paper, DDG (and naturally Bing) are significantly performing worse than Google, even in the face of Google having gotten worse.
I always had a gut feeling about that when using DDG, but interesting to see the numerical difference. (31% vs 23% vs 9% spam)
DDG is worse, at least anecdotally. But kagi is much better. Looks like the researchers didn’t study that one though so no “proof”, but anecdotally I completely stopped using Google for search.
I keep hearing about Kagi, are they reputable? I moved from Google to DDG and I do a fair bit of searching so I would be interested, but I guess there’s a bit of a one-company-knowing-my-search-history going on (totally unironically).
I haven’t done extensive research, but as it’s a paid product, they have the user’s interest in mind, instead of ad revenue.
It would be helpful if google actually responded and actioned on reports. i see malicious websites on search every day that I have reported numerous times.
They did for ~20yrs and probs still do to an extent but it’s an arms race[1]. Every time Google implement anti-spam features, SEO companies adapt. The problem is the webmaster guidelines Google published openly are often the backbone of any decent SEO.
I’ve been a web dev since I left uni in 2005 and worked for several SEO companies and even founded one. IN that time they’ve successfully destroyed multiple SEO/marketing agencies with their tweaks. They’ve decimated entire industries with their monopolistic practices (flight information, shopping comparison, mapping, etc).
I don’t wanna get into the blame game between Google vs SEO companies except to say: Google are cunts and you should vote by leaving them. They are not a benevolent company. They are the Micro$oft of the web and have ruined businesses[2] worldwide. They’re just very good at PR and keep a lot of the bullshit they do out of the public eye.
[1] Matt Cutts was a fascinating guy and was at the forefront of Google’s spam fight and communicated regularly with web devs/marketers.
[2] In addition to the mentioned flight information and price comparison monopolising. They fucked smaller e-commerce companies effectively handing business to big players like Amazon and eBay by forcing PAID usage of their shopping comparison and Adwords service.
Recommended Alternative Search Engines
- You.com - has AI chatbot as well as standard search using Bing
- Searxng - a meta search engine with multiple independent & tweaked instances. E.g. https://searx.be
- DuckDuckGo - uses Bing and Yandex but also has “nag operators” to quick private search other engines.
Is it just me, or has autocorrect on phones also gotten way, way worse? When would I ever want to type ‘thbnks’?
Yeah, Google search is useless now. I’ve switched to ddg , and it’s much better. Just not having all those sponsored links helps a lot .
Maybe a searx instance would be even better, but I haven’t found one that works consistently for me.
Since you say DDG is better, what’s your take on the link we’re discussing here, then? After all, the paper they talk about shows that DDG (and Bing, which is the vast majority of DDG’s input) is signficantly worse than Google.
Or, to quote from the page instead of having to go into the paper:
Notably, Google, Bing, and DuckDuckGo all have the same problems, and in many cases, Google performed better than Bing and DuckDuckGo by the researchers’ measures.
DDG is largely Bing search at the backend, unless I’m much mistaken. They do value-add work around privacy, but in the basic sense of “does a DDG search return good results”, it’s largely the same as Bing.
Kagi is paid service, but the results are so good!
edit: fix typo
I recently switched to it, and it’s night and day, it saves me a lot of time when I find exactly what I’m looking for right away. I love it!
Well your comments sure don’t sound like astroturfing
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How else are we supposed to tell of our positive experiences?
When I first read your reply, it sounded sarcastic, and I replied as such. But I don’t think you were being sarcastic. My apologies stranger!
it’s decent, but I’ve stopped using it because I’m not fond of the decisions they’ve been making https://chaos.social/@scy/111704636274463611
I nearly left them after reading through all that, but I kinda reached the conclusion that they have open discussion about it on the company portal with users, they’ve given their justifications, and they are listening. Who knows though, maybe they’re just funnelling through brave to save money, and it’s got nothing to do with search results.
To me, it’s an icecream with a smell of dogshit, rather than an icecream topped with dogshit. It’s not completely perfect, but it’s a struggle to find any service that’s 100% agreeable nowadays.
