Or does it?
I know we were once nothing, but it is still terrifying and depressing to me to think about returning to this. In fact, as of late, I’ve been unable to not think about it: the loss of all experience and all memories of everything, forever. All the good times we had, and will have, with anyone or anything ever will totally annihilate into nothingness. All our efforts will amount to nothing because the thoughtless void is ultimately what awaits everything in the end.
The only argument against this would have to be supernatural, like another cause of the Big Bang or somehow proof of reincarnation, but if my consciousness won’t exist for me to experience it, then what does it matter either way?
There is no comfort in Hell, either. The anvil of death weighing down, infinitely, on all values and passions is becoming unbearable for me, so I could really use any potentially helpful thoughts about this matter.
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Do you fear the void before birth you emerged from?
Same shit.
The 70s happened before I was born, so yes.
That’s a different situation because we hadn’t experienced life beforehand. Do you not value the memories of your own life experiences? It’s that loss that sucks.
Yeah, but by the same uncertainty, maybe you gain all dead people’s memories when you are submerged in the void? We all just go back into the pot, so to speak.
Not having to pay rent will feel pretty great too.
Fair, we cannot truly know what happens after… but at this point in my life, I’d be glad to keep paying for everything else I’m getting, so perhaps that’s partly where this struggle comes from: net enjoyment > suffering at the moment, which I don’t want to see vanish.
thats debatable. There is a fair amount of evidence that the flow of time is an artifact of our perception and that nothing is really beforehand and your death is nor more in the future than your birth.
Really? Do you have any reading that you’d like to link to about this?
so here is one from a quick search but its a subject that comes up again and again the series. Its really nice to actually watch the series from the start as episodes will reference discussions from other episodes. The channels purpose is to explain big things as simply as possible so not exactly for the average person but someone who understands algebra and equivalent level science. From my experience finishing high school should be enough although I think most people who retain that stuff likely went to college. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkWT-xMTm1M
most of them have been videos. things like pbs space time. I will see if I can track any down but its come up haphazardly with science shows talking about relativity.
There’s no use in fearing the inevitable. It will come, whether you like it or not, and no amount of fighting can stop it. Fearing it only makes you focus on some indeterminate time in the future and lose sight of the now.
But we plan for the future and take action accordingly. How many of your actions are rooted in just fighting boredom versus addressing future matters, after all? This does influence everything. It’s sort of leading me to live more in the moment to the point of procrastinating on issues that I’d normally probably try to address more promptly…
Planning for the future has nothing to do with whether or not one fears death. And it’s perfectly okay to live more in the moment, because the moment is all we have. The past is gone, the future is yet to come, you exist in the now. So go ahead, procrastinate a little! The vast majority of our problems are not so time-critical that an hour long walk is going to ruin your future. Treating yourself to a coffee and a donut every now and then doesn’t leave you fated to be destitute in 5 years.
The past is gone, the future is yet to come, you exist in the now.
Sounds like you’ve read The Power of Now. I never did finish that book… Thanks for the reminder. Now… *continues to procrastinate on taxes*
Practice radical acceptance
There is no benefit in attaching ourselves to the suffering and rumination of that which cannot be changed. We practice radical acceptance in this instance because it, more than any other instance, is unchangeable. Allow yourself to feel the frustration, sadness, grief, anger, etc that you feel when you think about death but allow yourself to let the thoughts pass by rather than attaching to them. If you struggle with it (which of course you will, you’re only human) reflect any analyze your resistance to being able to accept.
It takes practice. There’s a lot more to it, I’m paraphrasing a lot. It’s worth reading about if you’re really struggling
I had forgotten about this phrase, thanks. I had thought “radical acceptance” was just about one’s individual, undesirable personality traits or physical appearance, but I apparently haven’t read much into this topic! I’d appreciate any resources.
https://hopeway.org/blog/radical-acceptance
I don’t endorse this website necessarily but skimming the content this page seems like a solid overview
The classic therapy book is “Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life with the Heart of a Buddha” by Tara brach
But that hints at what it really is: radical acceptance is really co-opting the Buddhist concept of equanimity (upekkha), one of the four sublime states. We have co-opted mindfulness from this as well and made it something a bit removed from its original form
https://www.buddhanet.net/ss06/
“But the kind of equanimity required has to be based on vigilant presence of mind, not on indifferent dullness. It has to be the result of hard, deliberate training, not the casual outcome of a passing mood”
Yet many mindfulness “apps” are the opposite of this, promoting indifference. They miss the point. A takeaway from my post, if nothing else, is that this takes effort and diligence
A similar concept is 不動心 or fudoshin, the “immovable mind” from Japanese martial arts
https://www.amardeep.co/blog/how-to-use-fudoshin-the-right-way-to-be-unstoppable
Although a lot of the writings on this are like this, about endless achievement and goal orientation. This is not without merit of course but because of the association with martial arts you get a lot of “dojo people” writing on how to get to the next level, instead of a focus on inner peace. That may align with your goals though and it certainly has its applications
We all have a fundamental drive to avoid dying. Our awareness of this inevitability is in direct conflict with this. The solution is often a change in how you think about things and yourself.
My personal view is that I have something analogous to a soul. It is the ‘me’ of me. It is also fundamentally tied to the structure of my brain (and body). When that structure changes, I change, when it goes, my ‘soul’ is destroyed with it. Critically however is that it is not alone. I can imagine what friends and relatives would say or do. In some ways, I have a weaker copy of their ‘soul’ within mine.
I also imprint part of my soul onto others in other ways. I create ripples in the world. Changes that wouldn’t happen, were I not alive. Those ripples propagate through others, changing them. Some of those ripples are weak, only affecting 1 person. Others are stronger, affecting several people. A few are strong, able to spread, grow, and change the world (if only slightly). While those ripples, or their echoes exist, part of me does too.
My goal in life is 2-fold. Maximise my happiness and maximise the positive ripples I can create.
A quote by Terry Pratchett put it more poetically.
“No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away, until the clock wound up winds down, until the wine she made has finished its ferment, until the crop they planted is harvested. The span of someone’s life is only the core of their actual existence.”
Right, I’ve certainly thought about this:
No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away
Here’s my problem: that “finally” will still come, and even centuries or eons of influence are nothing compared to the eternity of experience-less-ness. Death will eventually come for everyone and everything, even stars. Perhaps I was influenced a bit by this graphic about the life cycle of stars, especially the anthropomorphic white dwarf: https://old.reddit.com/comments/1j68uai
This is the core of the issue with Dio de Los Muertos, the idea that your existence will last as long as others’ memories of you will; that will still eventually come to an end, so why try so hard from a moral position to alleviate suffering if all suffering itself will also cease anyway?
You can certainly still do it, and I will also still try to reduce others’ suffering in whatever ways I feel I can sustainably repeat for my own comfort level, but we then can’t claim some kind of moral superiority in doing so versus selfish people if it all comes to an end anyway; you simply do it because it makes you feel good, perhaps fed by millennia of evolutionistic altruism. There is no basis for any moral high ground when everything all comes to an end in this tiny blip of life existence anyway.
The ace in the hold to my view here is life extension and age-reversing technology. If we can actually conquer age-caused death, then that would totally change the ballgame. I guess we’ll see if that’s possible, with all the billionaires and scientists currently pouring beacoup bucks into this endeavor. But… I don’t know…
Anyway, thanks for sharing. It’s an extremely difficult topic no matter how you slice it.
Embrace the void, like the womb it is. Safe, tranquil, forever at peace. Closest thing to a real heaven
The loss of my memories is not something I look forward to (again, presuming that’s what would actually happen).
There is a difference between knowing and feeling. Rest in the feeling of your life before birth. What do you feel?
Nothingness is not peacefulness, though. Peacefulness is an active emotional state that I would much prefer.
If you don’t mind, I would like to ask again: what do you feel?
I hadn’t answered because I didn’t know what you had meant: what do I feel when thinking about that, or right at this moment, or about this topic in general, or something else?
I mean thinking about that, the time before your birth.
It means nothing; don’t you cherish your experiences over the course of your life in comparison? I feel like people who don’t care must have had bad histories or something.
It’s all probably true. Yet:
What do you feel?
Well, I answered that: I feel nothing. It doesn’t seem to be nor evoke any particular time or sense of peace. I would rather generally have knowledge than not, so it’s not something I’d look forward to returning to, at least given how I have no chronic ailments so far.
From an uncertain genesis to a certain end. You do not remember being born, but you know someday that you will die. This is awareness. And there is some comfort in this.
In the past you have remembrance or memory. The things that you were or the things that happened to you. In the future you anticipate what could come, or what your hopes are. You make plans. And that’s fine. It’s part of the human condition. But the now is the only thing that is actually happening.
Seize this moment. This moment is where you are. This moment is where you live. Being kind to yourself, being kind to others, being a person that others would wish to be, if they were examining your present person.
To build the world, or at least your small part of it, in the way that you see fit is all that our tiny hands can do. And there is a certain satisfaction in that. To live moment to moment. And to build your station. And to build others stations around you. To empower yourself and others. These are the things that build satisfaction. Gratification. These things are real. And these things do not require anything of the past or future.
Eventually you can stretch this now into the whole of your life. And it will provide wholeness that is not dictated by any sort of belief. For belief is not necessary. Let me repeat. You do not need to believe in anything to have wholeness and fulfillment in your life. But it certainly helps to be kind to others for its own sake. For that is the rule that others will measure you on as well.
I hope that helps.
PS. If you dig on this kind of thing, look into stoicism.
These are the things that build satisfaction. Gratification. These things are real.
But gratification is ultimately just a series of chemical reactions. So you’re saying to merely dig into the chemicals? To be clear, I don’t fault you if your answer is “Yes” and even think that that’s the inevitable answer; it just seems less… valuable to me, if I couldn’t find a more accurate adjective.
I don’t think I’m looking for any particular belief but I guess I just wish that being kind to others (which, to clarify, I will almost certainly not just stop doing) mattered on a level more than just us wanting to do it for the chemicals, now that I’ve totally sunk into science’s observations of the material world being all that there is. Since I no longer believe that there is a higher power, I’ve concluded that we just do things for the feels, good or bad. And that seems… lame(? Or something) to me, but it appears like there is no other way to go about it. Morals don’t independently exist (there is no such objective thing as “justice,” etc.) and are just guided by hormones and chemicals evoking sympathy based on our experiences and subjective thoughts of what justice, happiness, peace, etc. even mean.
And then our memories of it all will end anyway. What a waste and tragedy.
Sorry for being such a sour worm. I do appreciate your response but all this thought is leading me to “seize the moment” and therefore procrastinate on doing my taxes versus playing games, etc.
But gratification is ultimately just a series of chemical reactions. So you’re saying to merely dig into the chemicals?
No. I mean I guess you could see it that way, and you could even do that, whether those chemicals be internal or external. But I think that’s oversimplifying. The satisfaction and gratification come from knowing. Knowing that what you are doing right now is something that you want to be doing. Not want in the I want a sandwich sort of way. Want in the I want what I’m doing now to be the thing that gives my experience a more complete and deep meaning sort of way.
I would quote here but it seems pedantic.
You speak of chemicals and hormones evoking emotions (sympathy was your word) based on some arbitrary morals that don’t exist. And I don’t think you’re wrong. But I think in this case you’re not oversimplifying you’re overcomplicating. Erm. Let me see if I can elucidate. I’m thinking this through right now so let me see if I can get it right…
Think of yourself as an ant. On a very big round hill with a whole bunch of other ants. You are Flagstaff the ant. You are part of a colony. I am monocle the ant. And we are discussing this in some sort of bizarre moderated telepathy that we call words. I think some things, you think some things, and these things that we think of are all controlled by our hormones and chemicals. Pathways of how we think are familiar routes for those neurons that fire. That’s how we have been conditioned to be who we are.
We make decisions based on that. Our identities are based on that. What make us up are our experiences. And what we decide to do with those experiences. Just like every previous experience from every entity that we have ever come in contact with. So it’s like we couldn’t have ended up anywhere else because that’s what we have decided to do. This conversation is what we’ve decided to do. This is the question of free will.
So if you zoom way out, I mean like way way out, all you see is the colony. Like Flagstaff and monocle don’t really exist, except that we do. You don’t give names to ants. It’s just ants. You look at an ant colony, and you think there’s ants. Yet all the ants are communicating in a somewhat similar fashion as to what we are.
Is it pointless? What the ants do? What we do? Maybe. But there is some amount of meaning in the question that you asked. Or at least we hope there is. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here answering it, and you wouldn’t be replying to my answer, and I wouldn’t be replying to your counterpoint.
Being good to yourself and others. Whatever that is and whatever chemicals that it produces, cause and effect and all that. We don’t need a higher power for that. We are the higher power, we are the colony.
Well that sounds really hokey and like a bunch of metaphysical horse crap. But I’ve re-edited this thing like 10 times and I have work in the morning at my factory job. So I have to let it go for now. Hope that helps.
Oh, what you typed isn’t crap, haha, and dang, you don’t have to prioritize this before some tough upcoming work! I’m not suddenly going to off myself upon having these thoughts (rather, I want to keep positive experiences going), so I’ll still be here to read—but I appreciate the care nonetheless.
Like Flagstaff and monocle don’t really exist, except that we do. You don’t give names to ants. It’s just ants.
I’d rebut that by saying that’s only because they all look identical to us, and their more basic form of organism limits them from exhibiting drastically different behavior as people can way more observably demonstrate. I don’t know if scientists have studied whether bugs can identify each other; perhaps they can. Perhaps even their sense of the passage of time is different from ours.
We don’t need a higher power for that.
This isn’t a matter of “need,” though; we basically can’t turn back to thoughts of a deity because of the massive logic defiance alone anyway, among other things. Rather, I would also raise uncertainty over this:
we are the colony.
I just don’t know about that. Sure, society makes us relatively much safer off than we otherwise probably would be without it, but we still very much have our own individual independence or else there wouldn’t be anywhere near as much social rebellion and harm done to others, from Luigi’s shooting to the auto-denied claims equally. We are a part of society and can either continue supporting it, trying to change it, or actively leaving it or even antagonizing it.
I just don’t see any overarching reasons to prioritize one or the other beyond:
- evolutionary altruism
- fear of discomfort
- feelings
In light of the eventual death of even society (that’s an assumption I’m making, I’ll concede, sure), one can’t claim to take any particular one-of-the-above-actions versus anything else… beyond merely wanting to do it or not. Anything else is a false sense of nonexistent moral superiority over the other possible actions/reactions. One only helps the colony/society because it makes one feel good, but death still ultimately obliterates all—and all values with it. I guess that is where the crux of my developing, reluctant philosophy lies.
So it’s like we couldn’t have ended up anywhere else because that’s what we have decided to do. This conversation is what we’ve decided to do. This is the question of free will.
The indeterminability posed by quantum physics—specifically quasars—would like to have a word with you. There is some interesting stuff here to suggest that bugs aren’t all instinct, either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_Cognition
All the good times we had, and will have, with anyone or anything ever will totally annihilate into nothingness.
No. They will still have happened. You will still have experienced them. You can only really ever experience whatever is happening to you now. If there is only nothingness after death, then you will not experience it.
Make the most of your life in the way it make sense to you. That could be having more shared laughs with loved ones or dedicate it to saving the critically endangered purple-spotted pygmy shrew.
In short: You will experience your life, you will not experience “the great void of death”.
I think of it this way. Do you remember your great grandparents? How about your great great grandparents? How about your great great great grandparents? At some point, you’ll go, “Gee, I’ve never thought of them before.”
But do you think they mattered? You may not know what they did, what they hoped for, and the struggles they faced, but had they not existed, neither would you have. They mattered, even if you remember very little about them, and on top of that, you can probably learn about many of them with some effort in genealogy.
You may not have some cosmic importance with the power to change the world, but neither did most Christians, even when you were a believer. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t matter, and it doesn’t mean you don’t matter.
Christianity teaches you the lie that to matter, you must have permanence, but consider this:
Your life is like a plate of cookies, warm and sweet and delicious, and it is best when shared with people you love. One day, that plate of cookies will be empty, but the cookies are no less delicious and the sharing no less meaningful just because there is a finite number of cookies.
One day, my plate of cookies will be empty, but if I am remembered fondly, then it will have been a life lived well. I don’t need infinite cosmic importance to matter, and neither do you.
if I am remembered fondly
The problem is that this doesn’t matter relative to the looming deadline of the eventual, permanent nonexistence of everything—not just your own short life—I mean the entire universe and your memory keepers; what does it matter if one is remembered fondly for a brief few decades or even centuries or millennia versus timelessness? I don’t think many people understand just how vast infinity really is. You can tell yourself that your life choices matter, but that’s not the truth, given how everything goes to basically science’s version of Sheol/the OT “grave.” For them, there was no out; that was it.
It may sound cold, but what would it matter to research our ancestors’ struggles, hopes, dreams, and experiences? Struggle itself will cease to matter—collectively for everyone/everything—as well as everything else we’ve mentioned. It would sure be nice, even great, if it mattered, but I can’t see how any particular value can be objectively derived from anything given the vast entropy that awaits all things, including the permanent death of knowledge itself. Our own discussion here will crumble. It’s maddening that nothing will be untouched; nay, even nothing less than being completely obliterated. Therefore, any “well-living” of one’s life would simply be because one wants to do it, with no further basis other than just feeling good (from evolutionistic altruism or whatever provides the dopamine or serotonin, sure)—certainly not “morals,” which technically don’t exist and were just collectively agreed upon to sustain hive minds’ survival. And while I’m certainly not gonna suddenly go immoral…
That severely bothers me.
I don’t need infinite cosmic importance to matter, and neither do you.
It’s not about importance to other people or beings; it’s just about our own continued experience of experience itself. If you won’t be there, why does what anything you struggle for matter? If you cause someone more pain… they’ll eventually just die anyway! If you fight to reduce waste and help other people reduce pain in their lives or others’… they’ll all just die anyway! “But for the span of their lives, they’ll have felt better/worse”—so what? There is no basis for any valuing of one way or another relative to the absolutely immense size of eternity that awaits after such a speck of < a century of some more/less suffering/enjoyment. Am I missing something here? Seriously, I hope I am, but this is all I can conclude.
I feel like the only consolation is that those in massive suffering (whether physical or otherwise) will eventually find “peace” through death, even though nothingness is technically not actual peace, either; the phrase, “lay to rest,” seems to ultimately be still more anthropomorphizing and feel-good comfort, to me anyway, for basically anyone who isn’t in the height of constant, unavoidable pain.
With that said (and I mentioned this in another comment elsewhere here), the ace in the hole that completely throws my argument for a loop is the potential development of anti-aging technology should we be able to get anything like it, thanks to all the billionaires striving for it these years. It really resonated with me when Seth McFarlane said in The Orville about whether one would choose to live forever or not: “I want to see what happens next.” If we can actually achieve that, then there’d be a better argument… in my understanding, anyway.
Christianity teaches you the lie that to matter, you must have permanence
Not really; I just want permanence regardless, lol.
I don’t know if my input is wanted here but you should know everyone, everyone goes through this feeling at some point. We are so beautiful because we are so small and temporary.
One day the bones of the universe will crumple to nothingness in what we call heat death (we don’t know if this is accurate but the thought exercise is still valuable) and time itself will cease to have any real meaning. But you were real, you still happened, and nothing can change that. You’re beautiful because you’re a speck. If you’re ex-faithful you may have come to internalize that it’s by chance we exist at all (though I don’t know or want to tell you what to believe). It is by chance that an asteroid didn’t kill us in our pre-history like the dinosaurs. It is by chance that we developed cognizance and things like music and culture. It is by chance that the Cold War didn’t go hot and kill us all in the 80s. Every single day is a miracle. We are so gloriously, exultantly insignificant.
It’s true, I had forgotten about Einstein’s saying, that we can treat nothing as a miracle or everything as miracles. Thanks for the reminder.
And dude, spoilers! I haven’t seen BR yet lol. Anyway, I do appreciate your thoughts.
The problem is that this doesn’t matter relative to the looming deadline of the eventual, permanent nonexistence of everything—not just your own short life—I mean the entire universe and your memory keepers; what does it matter if one is remembered fondly for a brief few decades or even centuries or millennia versus timelessness?
It doesn’t. But I’m a cosmic nihilist, so the impermanence of everything we do doesn’t bother me. Whether it lasts forever does not change the present, and I will make this one life I know I have as good as I can, since I must experience it, and I will make others’ lives as good as I can, because it does not make me feel good to do otherwise. I have no control over death or its imminence, so what good does it do me to worry about it?
I just want permanence regardless, lol.
I’m sure a lot of people do, but it doesn’t exist, as you already pointed out. Even anti-aging medicine can’t stop the heat death of the universe. Trying to hold onto that wish won’t make it real, and it seems like all it’s doing is giving you anxiety. Dwelling on those things can feel like trying to solve a problem, but it’s one without a solution that only accomplishes frustration and worry.
Life is beautiful, is worth living in the present, because it’s fragile and rare. I have the unique opportunity to be the universe experiencing itself, and worrying about permanence won’t change that.
Thanks, good thoughts all around.
Nothing can stop the good times we’ve had from having happened.
Sure, the events are locked into the frozen river of the past, but they only matter if we can remember them. At least, that’s how I can’t seem to not see it as…
The counterargument that works for me is - why must it be terrifying to return to nothing? It’s something immutable. We weren’t owed anything by the universe - why bemoan what we don’t have, when we could enjoy that which we do?
Take a walk outside. Read a book. Snuggle something furry. It’s perfectly natural to fear death, but if it stops you from enjoying your life, isn’t that a little self defeating?
True, I suppose it could be seen as being greedy, then, given how we didn’t ask to be born, either. But we weren’t exactly able to, anyway…
I’ve had an overall decent life. I still have a lot of time to live with my friends and family. But I take solace in the fact that I will just cease to exist when I die. Or obviously, that’s my opinion anyways.
I don’t want to argue my beliefs, but that’s how I feel about it.
It seems like a just end. Literally nothing. A final sleep.
Yeah, I suppose I’m being too greedy or something. Thanks for sharing.
I’m sorry.
I did not want to imply anything on your view(s) with my post. I just wanted to say my personal feelings.
You shouldn’t feel guilty or anything based on what I said.
But I’m here if you want to chat.
Again, don’t feel bad about what you feel based on my post.
Oh, no, I had no issue with your thoughts! I literally meant what I said and that perhaps I should just learn to cherish the time in our lives more and not try to struggle for something that’s effectively, most likely unattainable. I don’t know; I’m still thinking about it, but no, you said nothing wrong or problematic. It’s a difficult topic no matter how you slice it…
Without trying to sound too metaphysical. I look at it this way. The atoms that make up my body were forged in the hearts of stars. These atoms have existed in some form across the universe for billions of years.
I don’t remember what patterns my atoms were before they became this one, and I don’t know what pattern these atoms will take once I am done with them, but these atoms will remain.
This consciousness that has arisen from this pattern of atoms may give way to a different consciousness in a different pattern of atoms in some untold amount of time. While this consciousness may not know of that one, and that one may not remember this, it eases my mind to know that the stardust that originated these atoms will still exist.
It eases my mind to know that in the infinite void of nothingness, this pattern of atoms and this consciousness have impacted those around me. The short period of time that this consciousness is around gives me the opportunity to experience the wonderful breadth of the human condition, because this will be the only time these atoms are in this exact pattern. Every moment of my existence I am unique.
I am of the universe, I have experienced the universe, and others have experienced the universe through me.
this will be the only time these atoms are in this exact pattern. Every moment of my existence I am unique.
True, very interesting thought!
I suppose it depends on how attached you are to this life. The loss of fear, worry, pain, drama, hunger, thirst, illness, etc. It might help to look at scientific talks about time. In particular if it does have a direction. Basically you perceive this thing happening in the future but that is just an artifact of existence as your future is no more separate than the past.
For me, it’s easy to not fear it when I’m healthy, but as soon as I have health problems, I get this strong fear of mortality. It’s a visceral thing though. In my mind, I know it’s fine, it’s inevitable, and there has never been a better time in history for medical treatment. But the fear I feel is separate from that rational knowledge. That is what’s hard for me to harmonize. There is an anxiety underneath it all. And the funny thing is I never used to get that either, but after my brother committed suicide, I have had this visceral, mortal fear.
Daily meditation has helped me identify the feelings, but has not helped much in overcoming them. It has helped me find peace among them, which is a decent middle ground.
The mortal fear also helps me clearly prioritize things in my life, so it does have its benefits.
That is so sad about your brother. That sucks that you had to go through that. I hope your family is doing better as well.
